Posts by stirred but not shaken

15

I want to know. Don't you?

by Old Goat in

some of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.

1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.

de vienne is not.

OG..Thanks for keeping this alive. Hopefully others here will see the importance of having their facts straight before engaging in mud slinging regarding Russell. His thinking, ideas and teaching was like so many others of that time. They didn't all agree, in fact they seldom agreed, but they were hospitable (with some exceptions) and even published each others views. Men like Barbour, Stettson, Storrs, Thomas(responsible for the Christadelphian movement), etc., were involved in dialogs that would often take pendulum type swings as world events changed.

As you point out, they call out Zydek, a so called specialist on Wt. history for his inaccuracies. It was suggested to me to read his writing when I began to search, and I know that I repeated what I read to others. But it was not accurate. Now I have egg on my face. The authors of Separate Identity are far more faithful in their research and reproduce the documentation for the reader.

It is a long read. As JWs we were not used to that. As it is, I learned from my experience with Zydek and others, not to make statements that can't be verified. It makes the Wt. dissenter (honest or otherwise) appear what the org wants others to believe - spiteful, hateful liars.

I think it's evident that I would recommend the book and the one previous about Nelson Barbour.

Oh, and thanks for clearing up Schulz' JW affiliation.

15

I want to know. Don't you?

by Old Goat in

some of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.

1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.

de vienne is not.

stirred but not shaken

The books OG refers to are the most comprehensive and well documented history of Russell and those who were known as associates at that time. For starters, he was never a second adventist and had almost nothing to do with Wm. Miller. He was associated with "Age to Come" believers. The dealings with some of those mentioned in the Proclaimers book such as George Stetson, Jonas Wendell, George Storrs, Henry Grew, W.H. Conley, etc., are well documented accounts. The authors are only interested in presenting the facts, and if there is no documentation for it, it won't be presented. I'm not so sure if Schulz is presently a JW..I don't think so.

The work is far, far more detailed and documented than anything the WBTS has presented or could. It is at first a bit laborious, but for those who want to know where all this came from, it is well worth the read.

After having been personally associated with the WBTS for over 60 years and being the 3rd generation, I'm still trying to unravel all the old myths. These books help put things in perspective. You will be particularly impressed with George Storrs.

Attacking statements that some have made regarding Russell and others involved in the groups previously mentioned, are passed on without verification and can and will damage credibility. These books will help those on this board who wish to comment on the WBTS history, to be accurate and more credible. I know I've learned a ton, and only about half done with the second book.

50

My daughter's wedding dilemma

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

my daughter will be getting married this coming august.

she and her future husband are not jehovah's witnesses.

they will have a non-religious wedding ceremony.

stirred but not shaken

Having been a long time elder, I can predict what the "faithful" will do, especially if any have positions of oversight. If they are not previously informed, they will feel obliged to leave, and feel justified with an impending reward for being faithful.

JW Facts mentioned "reality"...I agree, it must be faced. It would be something like inviting orthodox Jews and serving a ham dinner disguised as lamb. When they find out, they'll be incensed. "You should know better, and you tried to pull something over on us".

The caveat here might be that it is a non-witness wedding and they can invite anyone they wish, and the excusing witness will not feel that they have to be forewarned, because it is afterall, a non witness affair. They will then expect that there will be non-witness relatives and other worldly guests. If this cousin attends, they will likely take their usual position of ignoring that individual.

I was once informed by a former CO at a rather large and rather ornate reception, that if the separated and disfellowshipped husband/father appeared, we would all have to leave. He didn't, and all went well..whew.

18

Charles Taze Russell

by thedog1 in

jw
friends

i think i read somewhere, here or maybe on another forum, that somebody claimed that c.t.

russell stood on the brooklyn bridge with some others, all in white robes, in 1878, waiting for the rapture.

any truth in that?.

stirred but not shaken

Old Goat has nailed it. The book (the second in a series) he refers to is by far the most comprehensive and best documented account of the history of Russell and the Bible Students. In an attempt to vilify Russell, too many make inaccurate statements, passing on rumors as facts. This only gives the opposition the powder they need. BTW, Russell was never an adventist.

14

Dating the writing of a Bible book

by stirred but not shaken in

while doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.

society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.

the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.

stirred but not shaken

kaik,

There's certainly more than a few theories as to the identity of Babylon the Great. At least a couple of the commentators that I've read have suggested that it is none other than Jerusalem. It seems to be used cryptically. Much like when in Rev. 11:8 says "in a spiritual sense called Sodom" and later in that verse "in a spiritual sense called...Egypt". The only city likened to Sodom in the Bible is Jerusalem. (Deut. 29:22-29; Isa. 1:10;Isa. 3:9; Jer. 23:14; Ezek. 16:46). Rev. 11:8 continues, "the great city...where their Lord was also impaled". Luke 13:33 states: "Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the following day, because it is not admissible for a prophet to be destroyed outside of Jerusalem."

There are quite a few more biblical references that indicate or suggest that it would be Jerusalem. Getting a historical background on Sodom and Egypt and their dealings with Jerusalem seem to fit. Many prefer to say that it was Rome, but there's a good case for it being Jerusalem. This is a really abreviated rendering, but there's quite a bit more to add. Food for thought. It sure beats the heck out of the "worldwide empire of false religion", shortly to be destroyed by the UN.

14

Dating the writing of a Bible book

by stirred but not shaken in

while doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.

society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.

the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.

stirred but not shaken

Phizzy,

My purpose for initiating the post, was to point out that there is no book in the christian scriptures that comments on the destruction of Jerusalem post 70 CE. If, as you suggest, they are all later writings, should we not expect some comment on that event? Besides the vast wealth that was to be found in Jerusalem, Herod's temple was a masterpiece of architecture and viewed by many surrounding nations as a landmark. Other than writers like Josephus, there is nothing to be found in the scriptures.

I will still investigate the scholars that suggest the later writing you refer to. I'm not sure where to start, but I'll get around to it eventually.

14

Dating the writing of a Bible book

by stirred but not shaken in

while doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.

society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.

the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.

stirred but not shaken

Thanks Ann. Phizzy, I'll look that up. I have some of the "old" standard bible dictionaries, concordances and commentaries, like Clark's, Young's, Strong's, Halley, Douglas, Unger and others. But if I recall they will hold to 96-98 with a few exceptions in their notes of a possible earlier writing.

14

Dating the writing of a Bible book

by stirred but not shaken in

while doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.

society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.

the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.

stirred but not shaken

OT,

When I first started on my search about 2006, I read books from scholars who wrote in the mid to later 1800s. Several have been quoted in WT literature (for other reasons). A lot of them held to an earlier writing of Revelation. Including Westcott & Hort if I remember correctly. I was completely unaware that there could be an alternative date for that book. While visiting the internet on the subject of 607, I saw that book by Jonnson advertised. At the time I was still suspicious of books not sponsored by the WT and found on sites known to be anti witnesses. So what I had learned came from, in several cases, sources that pre-dated the WT Society.

Since then I have come to know more about Jonnson's work, and have read sections from other sources. Many from this forum. There are several JWs who have degrees in Hebrew studies, etc. and I've read some of their work. I will likely get a copy of "Gentile Times..." some time in the future, but wanted to be sure that I could tell people that my sources were not exJWs. I don't have much of a problem with that now.

As to reading or seaching non-cannonical books, I've only read certain quotes, except for the 1 & 2 Maccabees. There is also quite a bit of commentary out there on the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran era that I spent more than a little time on. It is quite revealing to know that there is considerable writings from non-cannonical books found there. They shed light on some things that you won't find in just the scriptures we're familiar with.

All of this is quite a process, but it has helped me quite a bit to reconcile disputed understandings.

14

Dating the writing of a Bible book

by stirred but not shaken in

while doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the wt.

society was in error, i was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s ce.

the reasoning that is used in the publications varies.

stirred but not shaken

While doing the research over the last several years that lead me to conclude that the Wt. Society was in error, I was introduced to the possibility that the writings of all scripture was completed by the early to mid 60s CE. The reasoning that is used in the publications varies. By just using the logic as to when the book of Jude was written, the "All Scripture.." and the "Insight" book suggest it was the year 65 CE because ..."Jude does not mention Cestius Gallus' moving in to put down the Jews' revolt in 66 CE nor does he mention the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. (italics mine)

This didn't mean much to me at the time (several times) of reviewing this book during the TMS. As mentioned, over the last several years, my study and research lead me to a lot of alternatives. One of which is that all writings were completed before 70 CE including the last book, Revelation. None of the writings include any information regarding the worst destrucion of Jerusalem ever recorded in history. There is no Christian book of Lamentations. Not any of John's writings (96-98 CE) discuss it. This suggests that it hadn't happened and his writings would have been previous to the year 70. Of course this changes the popular prophetic explanation of many religious groups, not just JWs. I'm aware of the Pretarist view and they fall into more than one category, and I avoid being called an "ist" of anything, because I don't think the "jury" is completely out on many of things we have yet to get a full grasp on. But I can say for myself, that it answers more questions than not. Reading the Bible, especially the Christian scriptures, is much more focused, makes more sense, and explains why groups such as JWs are constantly adjusting their timelines.

I know there are several on this board that have commented (quite articulately) in this regard. That point about Jude's writing time is just another good hint. Your thoughts!?

34

Feeling disloyal

by stirred but not shaken in

i've been visiting here for about a year or so, but didn't really feel compelled to participate other than reading the various posts that interested me.. there's been that uncomfortable feeling of being disloyal to god, the organization, many friends and relatives.. i've been associated since birth.

after 65 + years of service within this organization and actually enjoying that time, it troubled me to find myself wanting to express feelings that were contrary to all that time of "faithfulness".

those years were filled with progressive "privileges and responsibilities" even at a high level, and there was considerable success in our evangelizing activity.

stirred but not shaken

Very nice responses. We need to know that others identify. I have to remember how I would have reacted if someone I knew well left the fold. Actually I did know a few and I felt betrayed then disgusted and then felt pity. It's part of the structure, but it becomes incredible once you've been released or figured out the flawed concepts. I never really knew what the reasons were for those that left over the years, and I don't feel inclined to find them to ask them. Some were a bit on the emotional side, others were sort of full of themselves, but there was one or two that really had it together that surprised me.

I came upon these discoveries rather innocently. Researching the scriptures and their historical background was enlightening and fun. Particularly the period between the last book in the OT and the book of Matthew. This would include the Maccabees and Hasmonean dynasty, the Qumran era and the forming of the sects of the Pharasees, Sadducees, the Essenes along with the militant faction of loyalists. The culture of that time was exposed to all of that, and that was Jesus' audience, not the leftovers from the days of the later prophets like Malachai. After the Maccabean era, the Herods appointed the High Priests, which would indicate that something besides the holy priesthood, initiated even after Ezra's time, had severely changed.

Incidently, my user name, besides being a James Bond classic expression, is a play on words for the situation I now find myself in. But thanks for the lesson in the making of a good "gin" martini. I love 'em but can't handle but maybe two in one sitting.